Zasto mokraca mora biti alkalne reakcije u toku terapije uvinim cajem?

aziraphale · 06-09-2006, 00:38:32

sandric · 06-09-2006, 10:07:17

Pa to sam se i ja pitala,ja sam pomislila da je zbog toga sto u baznoj sredini dolazi do hidrolize heterozida i oslobadjanja aglikona koji deluje kao uroantiseptik...kako smo ucili na farmaceutskoj uroantiseptici deluju lokalno....

qwertz · 06-09-2006, 14:31:45

Ali, do hidrolize ce doci i u kiseloj sredini, a i pod vecom temperaturom!! Mora da ima nesto drugo!! Slazem se za lokalno dejstvo uroantiseptika, ali mislim da cemo morati da sacekamo Adonisa!!

BK · 07-09-2006, 08:25:32

Ja sam ovo nasla:
The active ingredient in bearberry extract is arbutin. Arbutin is split into glucose (a sugar) and hydroquinone. Hydroquinone combines with glucuronic acid and this compound is excreted in the urine. If the urine is alkaline (pH8), hydroquinone is unbound and released in the urinary tract where it exhibits a bacteria killing effect. If the urine is not alkaline, hydroquinone remains bound and is inactive. While arbutin and its metabolite hydroquinone are considered the most important active ingredients, there are other compounds extracted from bearberry leaves that are thought to have antibacterial properties. The peak antibacterial action takes place within 3-4 hours of ingestion. There have been no scientific studies in humans that have examined the effectiveness of uva ursi in curing urinary tract infections. Some studies have been conducted in laboratory rats. A long history of use speaks to its safety and many individuals claim effectiveness but that is not the same as having scientific studies that document its safety and effectiveness. There is controversy surrounding the claim that uva ursi is a mild diuretic. Several sources question whether uva ursi has any diuretic effect. Other sources suggest that a mild diuretic effect is not a result of arbutin but rather two or more of the other active ingredients found in bearberry leaf extracts.

Therapeutics and Pharmacology: Arctostaphylos has a marked antiseptic and astringent effect on the membranes of the urinary system, soothing, toning and strengthening them. It is specifically used where there is gravel or ulceration in the kidney or bladder. It may be used in the treatment of infections such as pyelitis urethritis and cystitis and is specifically indicated in acute catarrhal cystitis with dysuria and highly acid urine, where it helps to reduce accumulations of uric acid. With its high astringency it is used to treat some forms of enuresis and in diarrhoea. It is also used to treat dysuria. As a douche it may be helpful in vaginal ulceration and infection. Arbutin is the principal constituent leading to antibacterial activity, inhibiting the growth of Citobacter, Enterobacter, Escherichia, Klebsiella, Proteus, Pseudomonas and Staphylococcus (Kedzia) - and also by the breakdown of ericolin to a volatile component ericinol. There is thus a delayed-action effect which manifests only at the site of action. Arbutin is converted to glucose and the antiseptic hydroquinone in the kidney tubules, but only if the urine is alkaline. Although Arctostaphylos has long been described as a diuretic, in one pharmacological study it was actually shown to inhibit diuresis.

The high tannin content of Arctostaphylos has an astringent action on the lower digestive tract, and it is used in the management of diarrhoea and to reduce intestinal irritation.

http://medherb.com/Materia_Medica/Arctostaphylos_-_Uva_ursi_and_alkaline_urine.htm
Arctostaphylos: Uva ursi and alkaline urine

Is an alkaline urine necessary for uva ursi and other UTI herbs to be effective?

Although the scientific literature is almost unanimous on this point (Frohne; Lawrence; Madaus; Wichtl), it is not necessarily so. Common scientific wisdom states that the antibacterial activity of uva ursi is due to hydroquinone which is produced by breaking down the constituent arbutin (6-10% of iva ursi by weight) in an environment of alkaline urine. However, uva ursi was used successfully to treat UTI many centuries before urbutin or hydroquinone were ever heard of, and no special precautions were taken before this latest theory of the active ingredient emerged. The urine is normally slightly acid [pH 6; range 4.5-8.2 (neutral=7.0, lower numbers are more acid)], and may swing from acid to base and back during the course of a day. Infection by E. coli, the most common infectious agent in UTI, makes the urine even more acidic (Graff), so it seems likely that uva ursi can be of benefit even with an acid urine. Note: infection by urea-splitting bacteria such as proteus and psudomonas cause an alkaline urine. It is entirely possible that other constituents in uva ursi are active, and that some activity of arbutin may contribute to the overall effect of the plant even in acid urine.

Can urine be alkalinized by taking baking soda?

According to the German reference Teedrogen (Wichtl), sodium bicarbonate will cause an alkaline state in the urine, but only for short periods of time. The acid-base system of body is kept in balance via three major biochemical buffering systems, involving both the urinary and the respiratory systems, and small amounts of base added to the system are quickly compensated for by these systems. Abuse of sodium bicarbonate, on the other hand can be a problem. The elderly sometimes use it as an inexpensive home treatment for indigestion, and have been known to experience overexcitability of the nervous system, and even convulsions, side effects of severe systemic alkalosis.

How can the urine be reliably alkalinized?

Conventional texts in both the U.S. and Europe recommend a low-protein, high fruit and vegetable diet to alkalinize the urine (Graff; Wichtl), especially vegetables and citrus. Potassium deficiency may also cause acid urine, so adequate potassium should be maintained in the diet. This is normally not a problem with a vegetarian diet. Several pathological conditions may also cause alkaline urine, including the chronic use of diuretics, excess aldosterone, and excessive vomiting of gastric contents without lower gastrointestinal contents.

Is the urine more alkaline at times of the day?

The rush of acid into the stomach after a meal creates a relative alkalinization of the rest of the system, resulting in what is called an “alkaline tide” in the urine following meals. This suggests that uva ursi might best be taken several hours before a meal. According to the official German monograph, the maximum antibacterial effects of uva ursi in the urine come three to four hours after administration.

Active constituents:
Uva ursi contains 6-18 % hydroquinone derivatives, mostly arbutin with small amounts of the glycoside methylarbutin; 6-20 % polyphenolic tannins, mainly gallotannins, ellagic tannins and condensed tannins; phenolic acids; flavonoids, hyperoside and quercitrin; trace of volatile oil; resin (ursone); triterpenes; and an iridoid glucoside.
Pharmacological research has focused primarily on arbutin. At one time arbutin was marketed as a urinary antiseptic and diuretic. The activity of arbutin, however is less than that of the total plant. In the case of uva ursi the crude extract is more effective medicinally than the isolated active constituent.
When the plant is consumed arbutin undergoes a highly complex process in the body. It is split into a small sugar molecule and a hydroquinone in the intestines, and then the liver hooks the hydroquinone to another molecule. This makes it water-soluble so it is easily carried via the blood to the kidney. There if the urine is alkaline, the hydroquinone is released from its carrier. Hydroquinone is a powerful antimicrobial agent and is responsible for uva ursi’s ability to treat urinary tract infections. Arbutin has also shown to increase the anti-inflammatory action of synthetic cortisone. No human studies have been published confirming the role of uva ursi in people with urinary tract infections.

Evo puno ima ali u sustini sve je isto... Ko hoce nek cita...

Adonis_Vernalis · 08-09-2006, 16:23:59

BK,

to je odlican izvor!

Medjutim, moze da se cela prica pojednostavi, i isprica na srpskom, za one koji engleskim ne barataju toliko dobro...

Elem, arbutozid je heterozid hidrohinona i glukoze. Hidrohinon, buduci da je toksican i da se u organizam unosi per os, resorbuje se i dolazi do jetre, gde se detoksikuje gradjenjem glukuronida i sulfata. Ovi poslednji, buduci da su hidrosolubilni, iz organizma se izlucuju putem bubrega i koncentrisu se u urinu, gde dolazi do njihove delimicne hidrolize.

Ukoliko je pH urina alkalna, onda se ravnoteza reakcije hidrolize prenosi ka desnoj strani, dakle, ka stvaranju hidrohinona, koji, oslobodjen iz glukuronida ili sulfata, ispoljava na licu mesta svoj bakteriostatski/baktericidni efekat.

To je sustina. Pokusajte da je zapamtite...

BK · 08-09-2006, 21:34:47

Nisam htela da se ja pravim pametna pa da "laicki" prevodim, ali zasto to nisam uradila, ustvari, je sledeci problem : koliko ja znam i iskreno se nadam da ne gresim, hidrohinon i glukuronska kiselina (ili sulfatna) grade ESTAR, a estri ireverzibilno (gore receno delimicno) hidrolizuju u baznoj sredini, a reverzibilno u kiseloj, pa me je to malo pokolebalo? Pa opet pitanje zasto bazna sredina? Mozda glupo, ali da li ima veze sa tim sto bi mokraca bila mnogo kisela... ili opet rasle bi alkalofilne bakterije.. Mozda sam totalno omanula...

Adonis_Vernalis · 09-09-2006, 06:01:14

BK,

podji opet od pocetka... Tumaci sopstvenu recenicu. Idemo redom.

Hidrohinon se detoksikuje tako sto ga jetra konvertuje u odgovarajuci estar. On se izlucuje urinom. Urin je, uglavnom, blago kisele reakcije. Kao sto si rekla, u kiseloj sredini dolazi samo do reverzibilne hidrolize. Znajuci da je samo slobodan hidrohinon aktivan (zasto bi onda mehanizam detoksikacije pocivao na gradjenju glukuronida/sulfata, ako nije tako?), nama je potrebno da on sto duze bude u hidrolizovanom stanju na licu mesta, u mokracnoj besici, ako tako mogu da se izrazim. Dalje, rekla si da estri ireverzibilno hidrolizuju u baznoj sredini... Odgovor se nazire: ostvaris baznu sredinu, izazoves ireverzibilnu hidrolizu i on ostane aktivan.

Nije li to upravo tumacenje ove recenice, sa pocetka teksta koji si pronasla i postovala ovde:

QuoteThe active ingredient in bearberry extract is arbutin. Arbutin is split into glucose (a sugar) and hydroquinone. Hydroquinone combines with glucuronic acid and this compound is excreted in the urine. If the urine is alkaline (pH8), hydroquinone is unbound and released in the urinary tract where it exhibits a bacteria killing effect. If the urine is not alkaline, hydroquinone remains bound and is inactive.

Jedini problem, tehnicke prirode, je kako ostvariti sto duzu alkalizaciju urina? Vremenom ce opet postati kiseo, jer se urin neprestano stvara. Bikarbonat je jedno od resenja, ali ga ne smemo uzimati dugo i u velikim dozama, jer se moze poremetiti kiselo/bazna ravnoteza... Pored toga, pacijentima sa ulkusom zeluca bikarbonat ne smemo dati, jer se, u reaciji sa HCl iz zeludacnog soka, bikarbonat razlaze na ugljen-dioksid i vodu. Kao sto znas, ugljen-dioksid, kao gas, ispunjava zeludac kao supalj organ, povecava pritisak u njemu i moze da dovede do rupture istanjenog zida zeluca. U tim slucajevima, primenjuje se npr. dijeta...

Da se razumemo: alkalizacija urina dovodi samo do povecanja efekta. Nije uslov za dejstvo: preparat ce biti aktivan i ako ne alkalizujemo urin, ali manje.

BK · 09-09-2006, 08:03:49

HVALA, ja sam se nesto bez veze zbunila

anja · 09-09-2006, 19:30:58

Da li je tacno da urin moze da se alkalizuje bademom?

Adonis_Vernalis · 12-09-2006, 10:03:11

Ne znam za to...

Zna li neko odgovor na ovo pitanje?

Ja znam sledece: alkalna reakcija se moze ostvariti uzimanjem mleka, povrca (posebno paradajza), voca i vocnih sokova, krompira itd...

anja · 12-09-2006, 13:14:39

Hvala!

Maslacak · 13-09-2006, 11:10:25

Za alkalnu reakciju urina je dobra i Prolom voda

A kada smo vec kod fantasticne Uve, da pitam i ja nesto...

Svojevremeno sam imala problema sa infekcijom mokracnih kanala. Tako da sam u nekoliko navrata uzivala u blagodetima Uvinog caja.
Prvi koji sam pila bio je caj instituta Josif Pancic, mislim. Upustvo je bilo da se priprema kao infuz: prokuvana voda se prelije preko caja, ostavi da stoji pola sata ili sat, procedi i pije.
Posle toga sam otisla u apoteku po novi caj, ali su mi dali Uvin caj Sinefarma. Tu je uputstvo glasilo da se priprema tako sto se supena kasika lista, bas kuva par minuta u tri dl vode, ostavi da stoji 2h i tek onda procedi i pije. Uz obrazlozenje da list ima cvrstu konzistenciju i da je neophodno kuvanje da bi doslo do ekstrakcije aktivnih sastojaka. Treba li da napomenem da je ovako pripremljen caj bio apsolutno odvratnog ukusa?

I onda, na sve to, uceci farmakognoziju, procitam da se Uvin caj priprema kao macerat, tj da se ustvari preliva hladnom vodom!

Logicno mi je da se tako izbegava gorcina, ali da li je to dovoljno da se ekstrahuje arbutozid? I otkud ovolike razlike u uputstvima za pripremu?

Adonis_Vernalis · 13-09-2006, 12:18:18

Licno, preparat bih pripremio maceracijom na hladno, preko noci. Time bih zaista smanjio oporost i neprijatna organolepticka svojstva dobijenog preparata, jer se tanini znatno teze ekstrahuju na hladno od arbutozida. Koncentracija arbutozida u preparatu ostaje dovoljna za fino dejstvo, a nema toliko tanina da se preparat ne moze uzimati...

List uve zaista ima cvrstu konzistenciju. Ali, ne kao neka kora ili koren. Nepotrebno ga je ukuvavati...

Otkud tolike razlike? Zaista ne znam. To me podseca na onaj caj za iskasljavanje (slozena smesa nekih 10 komponenata), koji sadrzi i koren belog sleza. Generacijama farmaceuta sam predavao da se sluzi razlazu u kljucaloj vodi... Kad ono, na kutiji pise da se napitak priprema kao i svi infuzi: prelije se kljucalom vodom, poklopi se, ostavi da stoji neko vreme i procedi... Sto se mene tice, proizvodjac bi slobodno mogao da izbaci beli slez kao komponentu (cemu on, kad mu dejstvo zavisi od sluzi, a ne njenih razgradnih produkata?)... Ili da poizbacuje druge komponente...

Maslacak · 13-09-2006, 14:08:17

Hvala

Pretpostavila sam da je ono ukuvavanje nepotrebno. Ja najvise volim i spremam ga kao infuz, jer je caj topao, a meni ne smeta sto je gorak. A i brze je. Ali kuvanjem se dobije nekakva odvratna sluzava, maslinasto-zeleno-smedja tecnost koju je tesko gledati, a boze sacuvaj piti...mogla bi se elegantno koristiti kao emetik

Ja sam stekla utisak da oni u proizvodnji napisu jedno uputsvo, i onda stampaju to isto na sva pakovanja...sto bi se mucili da jos i razvrstavaju...

I asistentkinja Mira nam je pricala za tu situaciju sa belim slezom... rekla nam je da to obavezno zapamtimo, i napominjemo u apoteci, jer na pakovanjima cesto pise pogresno.

Adonis_Vernalis · 13-09-2006, 14:10:34

Neka korist i od vezbi...